Do you love your man for his Venus?
Many women don't want to put with a guy who doesn't appreciate her Mars, whether she likes to spar or play Halo. We are no longer confined to rigid fifties era gender roles, but people vary in the degree to which they successfully integrate their masculine and feminine selves. I've written elsewhere about men's ability to be with their feelings, suggesting that guys are still raised to choose the rational over the emotional. The article was a reaction to a woman's comment on this blog about her Cancer boyfriend's crying. If women want to be embraced for their masculine tendencies, shouldn't men be embraced equally for their feminine sides?
The feminine planets
There are two planets that symbolize the feminine: the Moon and Venus. Crying would fit under the Moon. This celestial body relates to the instinct to nurture, to belong. The Moon governs habits, instinctual responses, what makes us feel comfortable. Some lunar qualities don't really correspond to gender, yet others -- like "mothering" and having a strong feeling life -- are traditionally feminine. In a man's chart, the Moon may signify the wife.
Venus signifies the young woman to whom a man is attracted. But this planet is much more than that. In addition to governing relationships, Venus is all about charm, compromise, the ability to attract and seduce. This planet also relates to our values and preferences -- what we love. Venus is an "art" planet, and often a prominent Venus will correspond with artistic or musical talent, as She rules aesthetics, beauty and graceful form.
No doubt, a man who exhibits grace, manners and charm can be quite attractive (think Libra, which is ruled by Venus). Yet, via our cultural definitions, when does a man's Venusian side get characterized pejoratively as feminine? Homophobia is still widespread, and combined with sexism, a man's limp wrist or exquisite fashion sense may be seen as less "manly." Witness the metrosexual craze a few years ago, when a hetero guy got manicures and spent $200 on jeans. Just by virtue of taking care of his looks, doubt was cast upon his sexuality. Some women find this hot, yet others are attracted to a "guy's guy."
The devaluation of the feminine
We still live in a patriarchy, in which men have more power (and hence value) than women. Hence, it may be more "OK" for a woman to get a black belt in karate or play World of Warcraft than for a guy to get a facial and spent lots of money on hair products, or for a boy to go to ballet class. I (Sun, Mercury and Venus in Pisces) have always gravitated towards fields that are dominated by women: literary magazine in high school, counseling psychology in grad school, astrology later in life, expressive dance throughout my adulthood. And as "valuable" as literature, education, social work and the arts are, they don't pay. Big business and engineering do. Do you see a pattern? If teachers hold the key to our children's futures, why are their salaries so low? Could it be because they are predominantly women?
Nurturing and beauty, the Moon and Venus. Men need both, but they detach themselves from integrating these archetypes, choosing instead to get their lunar and Venusian needs met through women -- going for trophy wives, arm candy (objectification of women) or looking to their wives and girlfriends to "mommy" them instead of finding ways to express their own nurturing and aesthetic impulses.
So, the question is: What are women's attitudes towards men who are able to integrate these qualities, even if it makes them apparently less "manly" according to our rigid cultural stereotypes? And is this just an "American" thing? Please share your thoughts below.
Photos by icanteachyouhowtodoit under CC license.
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posted by Jeffrey Kishner at 1/02/2008
33 Comments:
Sadly, I have this double standard. I like guys that can be sweet and sentimental, toss me an emotional bone here and there...but the minute he starts crying, about "us"...HUGE turn off. He can cry over a loss of a family member, cry over something emotionally painful, perhaps get teary eyed when the relationship is over, shows he cares...but don't cry cry over "us". TURN OFF
To me that appears like he's emotionally unstable and relies too much of his happiness on me.
As long as he's not wearing a dress and wears Calvin Klein and not Chantilly I'm cool. Oh yeah, makeup is a deal-breaker too.
"a man's limp wrist or exquisite fashion sense may be seen as less manly"
if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck . . . you can bet your bony banana its a duck
quack quack
@Victoria, so I take it you don't like peacocks.
@badnoozbetty, so I take it you don't like ducks.
I gotta admit it: I like feminine men. I like a guy who can express his feelings and doesn't mind being sweet and charming. Crying is not a turn-off for me. Confidence is a plus (confident and feminine are not mutually exclusive features), but I'm okay with it if they're not quite so stable. I never understood why women were attracted to the aloof guys and the assholes.
I don't like being dependent on other people, especially men, for anything; I don't like the feeling of needing people to cheer me up, needing people to fix my mistakes and clean up my messes, as though I'm incapable of taking care of these things myself. I like the feeling of being the master of my own needs and emotions. I gave Men's Men a shot, the guys who revel in their masculinity like pigs in mud, and nothing was a bigger turn off than being expected to be dependent on them.
So I gave that up and now I pretty much exclusively date feminine guys. I adore Venusian men, guys who can tap into a sense of culture, who like music and literature and art and good food. You'd be shocked how many straight Venus-ruled men there are in this world, and how much they need to be told that hey, just be what you want to be, it's cool.
Sounds good to me ;)
Still I like a guy who's big and tall with large feet and hands, and a deep gruff voice. A beer-drinking gas-guzzling grizzly bear who knows how to dance up a storm and works till he drops. And wears a shirt a tie to the office every day.
Okay I know I want too much. But so does this kind of man . . . I might have to share him
That dude has a big cup, cute puppie dog look tho, I like it when men show feelings and cry its attractive shows they have empathy, the only thing that's a stinger is when the guys switch quickly from macho macho man to sensative you hurt my ego thing and they lash out at you like a little boy thorwing a snow ball you think you can dish it out at them then they give you the cold emotional sholder. Ms. Diff
I DON'T KNOW QUITE WHAT TO SAY, MOSTLY BECAUSE YOU ARE LOOKING AT ROLES AND THE VALUE PLACED ON THEM , USING THE SAME CONCEPTS THAT WE OLDLINE FEMINISTS DID IN THE '70'S. IT'S A VERY ODD DEJA VU TO EXPERIENCE. NO,OF COURSE WE DON'T VALUE OUR MEN FOR THEIR VENUS'. NOT AS A SOCIETY. EVEN SOMEONE LIKE ME, WHO DOES CLEARLY KNOW BETTER, SOMETIMES I CATCH MYSELF. TESTS SHOW BOTH MALES AND FEMALES TAKE PHYSICAL AND BEHAVIORAL CUES TO CHOOSE A MATE WHO WILL ENSURE THE SURVIVAL OF OFFSPRING, AND THE 'CUES' ARE VERY MARS/VENUS IN NATURE. WHAT TO DO? I DON'T KNOW EXCEPT CALL OURSELVES ON IT WHEN WE SUSPECT WE'RE DOING IT.
HEY ANONYMOUS DO YOU YELL THAT LOUD ALL THE TIME?!?
Victoria, my Scorp does all of the above you listed...except he wears uniform to work! Talk about a big YUM factor. You know, his Moons is in Libra and Venus in Capricorn so I would like to know WHERE the sensativity is because he doesn't have a bone of it in his body!
"As long as he's not wearing a dress and wears Calvin Klein and not Chantilly I'm cool. Oh yeah, makeup is a deal-breaker too."
If a man plays dress up, that's HILARIOUS (my aquarius moon). Shows he likes to have humor. But if he's MY man, I'd be more afraid of what the SOCIETY has to say... (south node in Libra?)
I mean, shucks, I usually pick the feminine artistic guy. NEVER been with the alpha male. Never ever. All that I'd dated were very neptune-y.
Should I go date some Mars-archtype now? Maybe I should. Maybe I should be man-handled.
Can't say I care much for peacocks of the male variety, but cocky roosters can be worse
cock-a-doodle-dooooooooo!!!
at 5 am in the freaking morning (please let me sleep already)
I've done the gambit, been with aries' caveman (enjoyed it for what it was..)to men who tend to get emotional when things get to them (pisces,scorpio). I have to say that I enjoy men who are expressive...in which ever way they choose to be. Unfortunately I sometimes don't have the emotional depth my husband does (moon and venus in Aqu. I get all analytical) but I have to understand this is the way he FEELS and I cannot pick away at that. I tear apart his logic, his arguement to me, but I cannot tear apart his feelings-something he risks humiliation by showing. I must say I respond to a man being "venusian" with his emotions rather than throwing things, screaming, or picking more fights with me(those fire signs will remain nameless!). I think we live in a mans world in general but it doesn't mean that I have to make MY world a man's world. Trust me, I've had to support men,I got sick of it, but it didn't make me feel any worse than depending on a man. I like to shower men with gifts, and I tend to normally take the dominant role of the relationship...I think it takes a stronger man in society to accept what a woman has to offer than the opposite, especially when it's physical (clothes, jewelry)! But every relationship has a balance...even behind closed doors...a giver and a reciever...feminine and masculine..sometimes at the same time! God bless anyone challenging gender roles! Great Post!!!
This is a perplexing question because I have looked at my past with this a lot (the "philosophical" Sag in me). I have noticed that I definitely get really close and bonded with a venus/talking/communicating type of guy, and then end up with a mars/masculine type somehow instead EVERY TIME.
Maybe its that I am a fire sign and the masculine type of guy (cave man) moves that fire in me more. It is not always worth it though. The water in me (scorpio) ends up feeling soooo neglected (like right now, for example!!).
When I was married, the guy I was with for 11 years was such a macho (another Sag like me) that he swore he would never even get sick (and he pretty much didn't!!) and he acted like he could do everything and he pretty much did!! He took care of me and my 2 children like anyone would dream in the sense that I got to be an at home mother for 9 years, something many people (if they want it) don't get these days (I did work part time the last few years) and he made sure that he ALWAYS was the MAN in that we always had our needs met(basic, we weren't rich or anything but...) he would work all day and then come home and still help out, give me "down" time etc.. cook often, etc... get up early and scrape off my car for me before leaving at 6 a.m., and then coming home at 6 p.m....). So, if I have to pick between this kind of manly man and someone who can "communicate" - its a tough one, really, it is nice if you don't have to choose, because communication was something that was lacking (and created the big OOPS that ended it all)but to be with someone who crys that they will get cold and sick if they go out in the snow?! Well, I never knew that I would find that so pathetic, but I do.
If a man crys about his feelings, though, that is beautiful (ie- my ex used to still have a tear coming down at a good movie - even though he really tried to always act like a complete macho).
Its probably like what anyone with a libra moon would say; it needs a balance. A guy really should be able to "suck it up" sometimes, to show that he can do what it takes to help his loved ones... and yet still have some sensitivity. If they want to be really sensitive and so forth, that is appealing and wonderful, as long as they still can do their part in the relationship, which usually consists of having to be strong at certain points (even a girl who is very venusy and sensitive has to show strengths (her mars) too at certain times - even if its "strength" is something as simple as being strong enough to blow off any other cave men around and hold her delicate heart for her one and only dear one.
I'm with Angelineelise where I do tend to play the manly role, shower my love with gifts. I've been told by all my guy friends I'm "one of the boys". They even do the whole "boy" handshake with me. I like to be dominated, but at the same time, I have a power struggle with ones that are controlling. Yet I like that control, makes me kind of feel wanted? WTF is wrong with me?
I want him to show emotion cuz of course I need that damn security being a Cap. Yet, at the same time, if he cries over us, at least early on in the relationship, and IIIII'm the one leaving him, wow...talk about making me walk away even faster.
Give me deep passionate love, love me to death. Just don't cry about it...sorry.
I'm with Angelineelise where I do tend to play the manly role, shower my love with gifts. I've been told by all my guy friends I'm "one of the boys". They even do the whole "boy" handshake with me. I like to be dominated, but at the same time, I have a power struggle with ones that are controlling. Yet I like that control, makes me kind of feel wanted? WTF is wrong with me?
I want him to show emotion cuz of course I need that damn security being a Cap. Yet, at the same time, if he cries over us, at least early on in the relationship, and IIIII'm the one leaving him, wow...talk about making me walk away even faster.
Give me deep passionate love, love me to death. Just don't cry about it...sorry.
I grew up with three brothers-- Two Tauruses and a romantic adored by all lady's man--a Libra with Scorpio. My father is a Pisces. I am a gem sun sag rising with an Aries Mars and Moon. Guess what? I am weak for the sweet, intelligent shy sometimes nerdy guy. I abhor sex/romance with fire sign men. I don't like indelicate or aggressive consummation unless I know and trust you with the deepest faith.
My first love was a triple Aqua, my spouse of 17 years a gemini with an difficult Leo stellium. My true love is a Pisces Sun/Mercury with Libra Moon and Aqua Mars/Venus.
My deal? I have a Taurus Venus. I have a crazy sexual appetite (Aries Mars and Moon trine Uranus 8th house) but am extremely feminine and rarely more than assertive in love matters. Hard to believe with the Mars Aries markers.
I instinctively trust sweet kind men, soft quiet men who long for love. I like to feel protected. Cryng? Ny husband and I cry at the same movies. I like that. The man I love most--the Pisces is also Cancer rising and we spend muchof out time sharing storeis about cooking.
ducks? nuh uh
penguins and roosters and all those foul(fowl?) feather friends not my cup of tea no way
chicken*hits are the worst
oh yeah and stool pigeons are really gross when they *hit splat your windshield
gimme a real man who cries in the closet and brings home the bacon
I must say this comments thread has made me laugh ALOT
As I said in the post regarding my own Mars, I like a guy that can like me for being a tomboy.
What I ended up with is a guy with Cancer Sun/Mars/Venus conjunct. And, thank the powers of the Universe, Moon in Sagittarius. He is a loving, mothering, caring - though not mushy and definitely not feminine type of guy. Whether he's denying his Venus, or embracing his sports and adventure-loving Moon, I don't know, but I do like the result.
Let me just note that I grew up without a mother (mine died when I was 9) so it's hard for me to connect mothering to feminine, but his type of mothering doesn't come across as that at all. He cares and nurtures, but that's him, not something I associate with a female trait.
As much as I am a tomboy and enjoy sparring, and typically male things, I don't like a guy who is too macho. I'd prefer they meet me in the middle, be as feminine as I am masculine without sacrificing our common ground. That way, we have balance.
I happen to be one of these women that falls into the double standard. My boyfriend of three years of whom we have INSANE chemisty...like off the charts, has Venus in Leo and Mars in Aries and Moon in Taurus. His raw sexuality of which he can be totally unaware of is breathtaking. His body is built like a boxer. And he is a Gemini Sun too born the same day as Prince and holds with him that same raw sensuality that Prince has. Women flock to him. He is sweet and loving. He is gentle and listens to me. No, he doesn't cry easily and he's not all that romantic with flowers etc. But his black hair, full lips and big sensitive eyes plus his tattoos and earings, and his mysterious appeal is addictive, sexy and yes... somewhat feminine -He is a Venus man all the way. Yet he can be reserved beyond belief making him that much more mysterious. ANyway, my point... he is sensitive and soft, yet burly and strong. THat Gemini duality. And sometimes as much as I am drawn to it I fear his softer side thinking he might be bisexual. He laughs when I've mentioned this to him. He doesn't get mad though. He is that strong in his sense of self. And I know I am just falling prey to society and history not the reality of who he is. I think men who are in touch with their Venus side make the best lovers, fathers and friends.
to the valkyri lady
thats good real good stuff and real nice to hear cause its true thats for sure i wish i had a man like that
is that your man there singin that cool song about his boys wontever be the same again since you met his girlfriend
you sound like a culturetype woman with good brains please write more
Anon with the 3 year smouldering relationship a few comments up. I feel a bit like the old lady in "When Harry Met Sally" wanting to order one of what you are having!! What more can a gal want?
I am completely for fairness! I think men should be allowed to be WHO THEY ARE regardless of what is "feminine" or not.
My DREAM guy is one I would describe by his appearance, then you can maybe imagine his insides:
Wearing a pink shirt, a kilt, barefoot, with a mohawk, dark eyes, tall.
There he is. The pink shirt cause he's sensitive, and with the kilt because he knows he's a man no matter what he wears! The barefeet are cause he doesn't really give a damn and he's Nature in the flesh. The mohawk because if you tell him to conform, he will just tell you to piss off. (one of those shaggy mohawks, those are hot)
I love a man who can cry. I think this "no cry" s**t is not only American, buy we got it from the British...though the Germans are up to it also.
The Italians, Turks, Greeks, and probably French too, have a completely diff. outlook on this crying business.
I will facilitate and encourage ANY kind of expression MY MAN wants to put out. ANYTHING. I even told my ex-hubby once that if he ever found out he was bisexual or something, to let me know and I would be cool with it....even consider arrangements for him to fulfill needs I couldn't quench. Imagine how I confused this straight Capricorn, hhahaha!
But, in conclusion, YOU EVIL WOMEN! IF YOU WON'T LET HIM JUST BE HIMSELF, THEN GET IN THE KITCHEN BAREFOOT AND MAKE THOSE BABIES! NOW! NO JOB FOR YOU! IN FACT, QUIT VOTING TOO! GRRRR!
I like sensitive men, actually.Yes, I do like a man to want to protect me, I admit.But I will prtoect him too.I don't mind crying if he's not a whiner.
I do think we've moved back (retrograded back?, ;-)) to the 50s when you hear stuff like "going to second base", or the word "sex" menaing only intercourse!If that isn't rigid and 50s what is?
Nothing wrong wiht a guy that can cry sometimes.
Sometimes the older we get we can handle other's "stuff" more--when I was younger I was afraid of someone else' even appearing needy, because of my own.In other words it was more of a projection.
Ayla..I saw you comment--good for you!U would have loved my exhusband.He worked in the fashion industry.
proserpine
Any man looks good in a suit. An Armani suit. I don't care how much Venus he has going on, or Mars for that matter. Or how big his equipment is. Just give me a man in a suit with a clean haircut and some hair on his chest.
Appearance counts, image is everything, and the other stuff is what keeps you together. You have to get together first. And for that, he needs a suit.
canta man be very venus if not super venus w/out being femmey. maybe it could make a guy 'feminine' or maybe it could just make him more the attractive, self confident, impassive type of guy rather than super aggro.
to be honest being overly mars for either sex always strikes me as hyperviligant as if the person lacks true confidence and self assurety so they go at life like a crazed terrier rather than having the cool poise or easy athleticism of a hound or sporting breed.
that is the extreme case. there is a large spectrum in between where men like women can fall w/respect to venus-mars that isnt too too one or the other and that is variety gracas à deus.
yup i agree suits are fab. by far my fave outfit for a man. of course, a guy can work it with an edge think a la david beckham the venusian bend it like this, Taurus extraordinaire. he has metro a bit in the past but i dont think most people question if he is masculine, like a true child of venus, madame, he can have it all.
I love you Bis! Brilliant! In that very unique and entertaining "bis" way ;)
I adore the crazed terrier metaphor. LOL. My neighbor had one once. Very annoying.
mwah, mwah, ciao bella mia!!
=)
im glad the terrier resonates, i dont want to sound like a breedist - of course there are lovely terriers lol, but we know how some can be..the "killer" type.
What if the man has Moon in Aries? Lets say he's a sensitive cancer but has a moon in Aries. Would he just be sensitive, and aim for a very dominant woman?
@bluegrass, He'd experience a conflict between his self-identity as a somewhat conservative, nurturing, sensitive guy AND being emotionally brash and impulsive. He may well be attracted to Aries-type women.
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