The Moon-Venus Conflict
The combination of these two feminine signs can manifest in a number of ways. The Moon symbolizes the mother, the child, the wife, the public. Our needs for belonging, nurturing and safety come under Luna's domain. Venus concerns our values, our sensuality, our erotic connections. She is symbolized by the young woman, the maiden.
Just looking at the characters representing these archetypes, we see a conflict between the mother and the young woman. Liz Greene has written on this in her Seminars in Psychological Astrology series. In a woman's chart, the native may experience a need to push away the mother to develop her own burgeoning sexuality. In a man's chart, the native may experience a split between these two archetypes, resulting in a difficulty in marriage. He may have trouble seeing the erotic maiden in his wife, and attempt to meet these two archetypes in different women. This is a frequent problem, of course, in the male psyche: Once the wife becomes a mother, can he see her as the sexually alluring young woman he met before she became his wife? Or does he seek out a young woman with whom to have an affair, while he maintains a family?
On a more emotional level, there is a conflict between one's emotional needs (Moon) and one's needs for approval (Venus). A native with a Moon-Venus square may give up her emotional needs for sake of being treasured and valued. For example, she may enter into a sexual relationship, while giving up on having her feeling life satisfied by her lover. Or if she chooses a man with whom she can feel "at home," the sex life is virtually nonexistent.
Overall, the challenge of combining family (Moon) and Eros (Venus) is symbolized by this planetary combination. There is a taboo in integrating the two (witness the primal scene of the child walking in on her parents making love), yet sensuality is an undeniable part of the family matrix. The challenge is to bring Eros into the home in an appropriate manner, by knowing where to set the boundaries. Salon.com advice columnist Cary Tennis recently responded to a stepmother who was hot for her 17 year old stepson. Obviously, Cary suggested she be the mother (Moon), not the lover (Venus), while still respecting that it was OK to have those feelings.
Comment below: Share your experience with Moon-Venus aspects.
Thanks to Noctule's Moon-Venus gripes in the comments section for inspiring this post.
Just looking at the characters representing these archetypes, we see a conflict between the mother and the young woman. Liz Greene has written on this in her Seminars in Psychological Astrology series. In a woman's chart, the native may experience a need to push away the mother to develop her own burgeoning sexuality. In a man's chart, the native may experience a split between these two archetypes, resulting in a difficulty in marriage. He may have trouble seeing the erotic maiden in his wife, and attempt to meet these two archetypes in different women. This is a frequent problem, of course, in the male psyche: Once the wife becomes a mother, can he see her as the sexually alluring young woman he met before she became his wife? Or does he seek out a young woman with whom to have an affair, while he maintains a family?
On a more emotional level, there is a conflict between one's emotional needs (Moon) and one's needs for approval (Venus). A native with a Moon-Venus square may give up her emotional needs for sake of being treasured and valued. For example, she may enter into a sexual relationship, while giving up on having her feeling life satisfied by her lover. Or if she chooses a man with whom she can feel "at home," the sex life is virtually nonexistent.
Overall, the challenge of combining family (Moon) and Eros (Venus) is symbolized by this planetary combination. There is a taboo in integrating the two (witness the primal scene of the child walking in on her parents making love), yet sensuality is an undeniable part of the family matrix. The challenge is to bring Eros into the home in an appropriate manner, by knowing where to set the boundaries. Salon.com advice columnist Cary Tennis recently responded to a stepmother who was hot for her 17 year old stepson. Obviously, Cary suggested she be the mother (Moon), not the lover (Venus), while still respecting that it was OK to have those feelings.
Comment below: Share your experience with Moon-Venus aspects.
Thanks to Noctule's Moon-Venus gripes in the comments section for inspiring this post.
Stumble It!
If you enjoyed this post, please subscribe to this blog.
posted by Jeffrey Kishner at 7/19/2007
20 Comments:
Ooh, Cary Tennis' advice is deep.
I have a Moon/Venus square. I tend to sacrifice my needs for love. Since I'm a Cancer rising, it's hard for me not to do that bc I tend to want security. I think this also played out in my childhood with my mother not being aware of my needs or ignoring my needs so that she could continue in her relationship. For instance, my stepfather was abusive to my sister and me. But the relationship was important to my mother. Hence, she ignored my sister and my needs for safety so that she could have love. And I think that I internalized that in some way, that in order to have love, I had to sacrifice my needs. Now, people who come from healthy families may not understand why someone with natal squares might see these dilemmas as insoluble. Someone without these aspects might think: But that's ridiculous! It's not an either/or situation--of course I can have love and have my needs respected!
But what I've found about squares is that the native literally can't believe that these internal challenges may not mean having to choose between two sides of the aspect. It "feels" as constraining and real as the force of gravity!
I have a Cappy Moon square Aries Venus. I've played it both ways -- sacrificing emotional security in sexual liasons and staying in emotionally secure situations without passion. Trying to find a balance between these extremes is a lifelong dilemma.
Pithy, anonymous. I've done it both ways as well.
@Eme Kah: I agree fully on the whole polarized/black white-conflicts due to squares! A have a Moon/Venus square as well, and I've found myself being in a very emotionally unhappy/abusive relationship that gave me sexual and material security, while also "cheating" by having an emotional relationship with someone else, who would provide me nurture, care, everything my relationship lacked emotionally and mentally.
It is difficult to obtain both in one relationship, and it's so weird to me.
I know it shouldn't be like that, I know it's not supposed to be like that, but I guess a lot of this lies in the fact how contradictory and self-straining the Moon-Venus square aspect is. How it wants care and love but is also terrified of attachement, dependency and own feelings sometimes. My whole mentality and views on relationships are so counterstraining.
Astrology or not, it is a fact that I feel and think this way, and I definitely think there is a correlation. This is a splendid post, and it's good to know (err, kind of) that more people are stuck with such a conflict.
Also, I get this eerie feeling that Jeffrey was inspired by BlahBlah's comment towards my blurtout about Moon-Venus square.
Hmm, well, that depends, Noctule, some of the stuff you mentioned may not necessarily by due to the Moon/Venus square. What else is playing with that square? Any Pluto or Saturnian aspects? What signs are your Moon and your Venus?
You have to remember that no matter how strongly we may feel about something, it may not reflect reality. That's what can be so difficult about squares. The square is an internal conflict that feels like an external rule.
Eme
I mean, I definitely think that my childhood and experiences so far shaped me as well, but the funny thing is that even THAT is somehow covered by my natal chart in some aspects that clearly underline lack of this and that, and childhood-this and that.
I have a Virgo Moon and a Sagittarius Venus. The Moon is in tenth house, the Venus is in first. As to my Saturn and Pluto, I've got Scorpio Pluto in 12th house, but I don't think that's relevant to anything. Capricorn Saturn in second house, not sure if that tells anything either. My Moon also squares Uranus, and both Venus and Uranus square Midheaven.
...I'm getting confused the more I write.
"You have to remember that no matter how strongly we may feel about something, it may not reflect reality. That's what can be so difficult about squares. The square is an internal conflict that feels like an external rule."
Hey, I agree on that, only it takes time to realize and smooth out your inner conflicts and feelings.
" How it wants care and love but is also terrified of attachement, dependency and own feelings sometimes. "
This is what jumped out at me as evidence of the Uranus/Moon square more than of the Moon/Venus square. The fear of attachment, I mean.
Well, look, I hear you. I often feel very discouraged with all these squares in my chart. I feel like, Ugh, what's the point? Might as well take what I can get. And then there are people with charts that are much more difficult than mine who can utilize their difficulties much better than I have so...
@Jeff:
You may have discovered a possible reason for cheating (reference to an earlier post about what aspects/signs lead to cheating):
"He may have trouble seeing the erotic maiden in his wife, and attempt to meet these two archetypes in different women. This is a frequent problem, of course, in the male psyche: Once the wife becomes a mother, can he see her as the sexually alluring young woman he met before she became his wife? Or does he seek out a young woman with whom to have an affair, while he maintains a family?"
@Eme Kah and Anon 4:48:
What happens if you meet someone with the same natal squares? Could you have your emotional and passion with them (assuming that person's square is compatible with your square)?
Noctule, did you see that Jeff said your comment inspired this post?
@Eme:
Love this=> "You have to remember that no matter how strongly we may feel about something, it may not reflect reality. That's what can be so difficult about squares. The square is an internal conflict that feels like an external rule."
I agree so much! It's the basis of projection 101, too. Rather than "owning up to" our own inner conflicts, we think some external reason (usually another person) is what's holding us back. I really think this is the cause for difficulties in relationships (any kind). When we judge or have negative reactions to other people, it's really a reflection of the challenges in our own charts.
For example, let's say a person has a mars-saturn conjunction. This person may experience an inner conflict where it's hard for him (or her) to make a decision because of saturn judging mars too harshly, which slows down mars' progress (for good or bad). This person may experience a great deal of frustration due to this aspect, but think the cause is OTHER people judging his (or her) actions too harshly. He or she may even take certain neutral comments from others to be criticism and react aggressively because the comment struck too close to the person's criticism of him/herself.
It sucks that perception is "reality", because perception is so subjective.
@EmeKah: I think I'll have to agree on the Moon-Uranus square being the anti-commitment/rebellious point here. I was so absorbed in my Venus that I forgot to mind that square, hah.
@BlahBlah: ...I noticed the small font eventually :P
"What happens if you meet someone with the same natal squares? Could you have your emotional and passion with them (assuming that person's square is compatible with your square)?"
I haven't dated anyone with a Moon/Venus square, I don't think. I dated one man with a Sun/Saturn square (which I also have) and I could understand him well and I could see how it operated on him and how others were able to manipulate him with it but, eventually, this relationship went nowhere.
I guess the Moon/Venus square is all about the Madonna and the Whore archetypes, huh, Jeff? I never thought of it that way, certainly I never thought of it in my life that way. Hmm. Sometimes, I have to admit, I feel extremely discouraged by astrology, specifically by my chart. The more I know and the more I see how aspects play out in my life, the more discouraged I feel about ever getting out from under them. If it's not the Moon/Venus/Pluto t-square (lovely) then it's the Sun/Saturn square that comes into play.
One thing I do see is the family dynamics of my chart and that has led me lately to think that the only responsible thing to do is to refuse to have children. My sister and I can't seem to resolve these issues that our family passed along to us, so why hand them off to another generation? There's certainly a "Curse of the House of Usher" feeling to some of these configurations. At least to me...
Eme Kah, There can be a Madonna/Whore split, yes.
Do you feel that you'd feel any worse not knowing the dynamics of your natal chart?
As for kids, I believe they have their own path, and that they are more than what their parents pass on to them.
"Do you feel that you'd feel any worse not knowing the dynamics of your natal chart?"
I don't know. But I'm certainly feeling stymied by mine. The more I know the less I wish I knew.
Eme Kah, I double that! The more I know about my natal chart aspects, the less I want to know, but I can't help and dwell in further. I get discouraged by my aspects too. I don't let astrology steer my life, but the thing is that it corresponds and explains a lot of my difficulties (and advantages) in life so far. I'm not sure what I want to know and what the stars have to hide. Ignorance is bliss.
Noctule, I bet I can take a look at your chart and see your difficulties as positives but I can't seem to do that with mine. I'm always very hopeful about other people's chances to improve their lives--not so much about mine.
Btw, Noctule, I don't want to contaminate you right now with my negativity. I'm just a wee bit blue today and feeling that Saturn on me, hence my posts. Okay? Sorry about that, Jeff et al.
Yes, the first thing that comes to my mind when I think about this aspect, is that it represents a conflict between what you want and what you need in a relationship.
I've been wondering whether this problem can be at least partially solved in a situation where a man is in a relationship with a woman who has for example Sun in conjunction with his Moon and Ascendant in conjunction with his Venus, therefore embodying both - desired lover and wife.
Of course, assuming that forming a relationship with suitable person can help to solve strictly internal conflict.
Virgos are known for their masochism so it shouldn't surprise anyone - personally, I love my squares. Honestly. Difficult as they are, but they're also highly motivating.
Eme Kah, for the past weeks Saturn has been terrorizing my Venus/Mars conjunction. Still, if there's a person who doesn't want to give that old rascal the satisfaction, it's somebody with leonine influences in a chart ;)
Take care!
I'm a Leo sun, Fiametta, btw.
"Yes, the first thing that comes to my mind when I think about this aspect, is that it represents a conflict between what you want and what you need in a relationship."
This is very good. What makes it much more difficult is that the aspect shows the type of mothering one had and often, tho not always, the mother didn't take care of one's needs appropriate and thus the native is often confusing his/her needs and his/her wants. Figuring out what is a real need vs. what is just a want is not very straightforward here and, depending on the signs, it can make it difficult to feel justified in claiming some needs. What's more important, anyway, what one needs or what one wants? For instance, in my marriage, I thought that my need for security was more important than my sexual satisfaction. Anyone can plainly see that security is important whereas one can do without sex, no? But that can be a real need for some, depending on one's chart, and not just something optional. A person with Mars or Venus in Scorpio (not me, btw) will deal with the lack of sex in a completely different way than a person with Mars or Venus in Virgo, say. Being a Cancer rising, I liken sex to food: some people are perfectly content with fast food whereas others would feel deprived without home-cooked meals and others still can only be truly happy with gourmet food. You'd think, hey, food is food, as long as you have enough, what the hell are you complaining of? But there's a soulful aspect to our needs as well and no one can really tell you what you need. But with a Moon/Venus square, in my case, anyway, that is exactly what I was told as a child: You don't really need that, do you? (As a matter of fact, my sister and I were having this conversation some weeks back, not in terms of astrology but in terms of how often we heard that refrain from our stepfather: You don't really need that, do you?)
If you've been taught by your own mother that your needs are negotiable, then it becomes automatic for you yourself to think so as well. When something is automatic, it is that much harder to see clearly. Breaking down automatic behavior is very hard to do.
I've been thinking very hard about what has my Venus(Leo, 4th HSE)-Moon(Scorp, 6th HSE) square brought to me.
One thing I know for sure is my mother always trying to ground me, to kill my desire to have fun in life as it's not important to anyone 'normal', to make me work and only work like there's nothing else in life.
Other than this, I had trouble recognizing my self as attractive, I guess my Scorp Moon was pessimistic when I was younger. I thought men are just sex-hungry animals that never pick their prey cause why the hell would anyone want me with all these pretty girls around?! Got that sorted out, luckily, by the age of 19, maybe even 20.
In relationships, assuming that we've defined this aspect as a conflict between what we need and what we want, or as emotional security vs. good sex, I think I never made this trade-off. There's no emotional security a man can give me if sex isn't on the level I reckon as good, there's no way I'm falling in love, also, under these circumstances. And although I could feel in a relationship that I'm not getting proper emotional response from the other party involved, on a rational level I knew that most cases I am the one being paranoid.
But, since irrationality is a personal trait of mine that shows up from time to time, feeling of 'something not being right' could develop a burst of words, flame and tears ('You don't love me, though I don't see why are you with me then' - irrationally rational, yeah). With time I start to trust in the one I'm with guided by 'no risk, no gain' idea.
Maybe I found some way of balancing stuff, or maybe my self-awareness is not that high as I think it is. Am I making sense here?! :)
i am dating a Leo sun guy that has a venus/Moon square,he has a long time gf and he dates me on the side for sex basically,as he is not satisfied with his gf,i want to be his gf but he won`t leave her allthough he is unhappy,very weird
Post a Comment
Get email updates when new comments are added to this post
(There must be at least one comment already posted for this to work.)
Links to this post:
Create a Link
<< Home